Star Trek: Theurgy

Out-of-Character Message Boards => Main OOC Board => Topic started by: Auctor Lucan on August 31, 2017, 02:25:04 AM

Title: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on August 31, 2017, 02:25:04 AM
The Asurian Threat
The Asurians will be the Theurgy's new sworn enemies. On which side will Dyan Cardamone stand, having seen her family killed at Starbase 84? Everything from failed diplomatic talks to all-out battles may occur in this plotline.


This one is still starting up, but I think it has a lot of potential. They might not be Klingons, but they could be a unique Theurgy canon threat! Check the thread Precarious Parlay on the board, and let me know if you all have more ideas to add to this one. :)

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 05, 2017, 04:42:23 PM
As at least one of my characters has been dragged into a front line seat for this one, I'm very curious to see how it all plays out. Right now she's in a "sit and listen" mode, but that can't last forever.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: chXinya on September 06, 2017, 03:44:33 AM
How about an offer to bury the hatchet with some champion combat?  They seem like a people who would go for something like that.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: FollowTomorrow on September 07, 2017, 03:10:27 AM
The Asurians probably don't think the Federation, or Ives for that matter, are the type for trial by combat, but they'd probably be surprised and pleased to see the effort being made to reach out to them on their own level. And I think Dyan would love it too, by virtue of her being kind of a miniature gladiator herself lol!

As for Faye, is there any chance she could skim some information off of Dyan's mind? I don't want Brutus to be left totally helpless <:3c
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 07, 2017, 03:16:17 AM
I'd be all for picking up something, a very distinct, loudly thought thought. I've been playing up on the whole "Betazoids can't always read minds" that we encounter in canon with the Ferengi and quote 'a few others species', and using it as an excuse. Câroon's like Dr. Nicander are complete blanks, Cameloids are very murky, and i figured the Asurians might be too alien for Faye to get a solid read on until after she's been around them for a while.

But yeah, I'd love to have Faye do something in the conference call, but even just staying there listening is gonna fucking stress her like no ones business. which is great in its own right :D
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Triage on September 07, 2017, 04:51:10 AM
After that Faye can unwind with Heather, whose mind is about as much fun to read as an attention deficit hyperactive squirrel on coffee doing crosswords, advanced mathematics, DNA splicing and an English essay on vienna sausagesall at once.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 08, 2017, 05:40:49 AM
I do think Faye's next post is going to be an anxiety fueled mental jump to conclusions about Ives sanity, dedication, and the sheer brashness that are the Asurians haha. All while trying to keep her mouth shut to show a unified front. After hearing the Queen go off about not being able to trust your own crew, there is no way Faye is going to speak up and risk saying something that might undermine the already tattered perception of Ives command abilities.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Triton on September 08, 2017, 07:59:53 AM
For the Asurians,
Striker:  "Captain, I was able to scan and observe 'X' and 'Y' structural exploits, just say the word 'draw' I won't stop firing until you tell me to."

Faye: "What are you, the Terminator?" *Upon not being able to read through his mental firewall*

Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 08, 2017, 03:57:36 PM
Who knew that Faye was joining a crew of officers all adeptly trained in mental resistances ! Maquez, Trent. Nicander, Sera, Ives and Sar-Unga all too alien. Why, there's naught for a telepath to do!


*Teases*
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Aeolus on September 08, 2017, 05:30:56 PM
Who knew that Faye was joining a crew of officers all adeptly trained in mental resistances ! Maquez, Trent. Nicander, Sera, Ives and Sar-Unga all too alien. Why, there's naught for a telepath to do!

Slightly off topic: that would actually be a good wikipage.  What characters/races are more telepathically resistant/trained than others.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 08, 2017, 05:35:41 PM
Would make my life easier
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: steelphoenix on September 08, 2017, 06:18:11 PM
Who knew that Faye was joining a crew of officers all adeptly trained in mental resistances ! Maquez, Trent. Nicander, Sera, Ives and Sar-Unga all too alien. Why, there's naught for a telepath to do!


*Teases*

And ironically, the one in the crew who dislikes telepaths the most is also trained to resist them  :)
But, that said, we're probably straying a little off topic.  Personally, I would love to be in that room to mouth off against the Asurian queen, but with the threat to send representatives against one another in some sort of honor duel, I almost feel like Deacon and Sithick are going to be the pokemon thrown into that particular gym battle...
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 08, 2017, 06:22:41 PM
Somehow, if it's an honor dual I imagine it'll have to be Ives. Or maybe sar-unga.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 08, 2017, 09:50:24 PM
Okay, wait a minute, is it really canon that humans and not just Cardassians can undergo training to protect their minds from being read? I would like canon references for that because I am not quite sure neither Trent nor Marquez can.

As for a wiki page, noted and added to the list!

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: FollowTomorrow on September 09, 2017, 01:13:58 AM
From Memory Alpha regarding telepathy:
Quote
Some species, such as Ferengi and Dopterians, could not be read telepathically, which may be attributable to the structure of their brains. (TNG: "Ménage à Troi"; DS9: "The Forsaken") The Sheliak were so alien that they were incomprehensible to telepaths. (TNG: "The Ensigns of Command")

Also from MA, regarding emotions
Quote
Strong primitive emotions, like hate, can block a telepath's ability to read the mind of a person. As a prisoner of the Talosians, Vina attempted to block the Talosians from reading her mind for years with primitive emotions.

This is what MA has to say on Cardassians and their mind training
Quote
The Cardassians were known for their photographic memories, which, per Dukat, were enabled by rigorous childhood training. Some, including Dukat, had the ability to resist a Vulcan mind meld, which Dukat explained as "simply a matter of discipline"
and
Quote
Cardassian children were often put into intensive mind-training programs, from as early as three or four. It is because of these mind-training programs that some Cardassians were able to resist a Vulcan mind meld.

And so, it looks as if Cardassians can resist a mind meld, but it says nothing about passive empathetic 'skimming'. However there are alternate ways to resist empaths, but either your brain has to be so differently structured that you wouldn't be human anymore, or you would tire yourself out with too much primitive emotion.


on another note, would you like me to post a brief 300 words on Dyan's emotions so Faye can respond with something, or save it for my next post after everyone else has posted?
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 09, 2017, 01:34:22 AM
That's what I recall as well, so unless there is anything more in canon, @Striker N7 and @CanadianVet , I am not sure you may have your characters resist telepathic or emphatic abilities that easily.

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Aeolus on September 09, 2017, 01:37:55 AM
I've searched high and low and couldn't find any way that humans were resistant to telepathy.  In most Star Trek episodes featuring telepathic dangers (Voyager's telepathic pitcher plant, dreaming aliens, and Botha) the human crewmembers were susceptible to telepathic assault.

The only thing I could find was DS9's Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Inter_Arma_Enim_Silent_Leges_(episode)).  Julian Bashir was resistant to the Romulan Mind Probes, but he was genetically engineered.  And in the episode Extreme Measures (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Extreme_Measures_(episode)), Sloan, a highly trained Section 31 operative, decided to kill himself when Bashir used those same Romulan devices on him.  So, this suggests that even he couldn't resist.

Sure, this is technology rather than naturally occurring, and the Romulans aren't known for their soft touch.  Being a superspy or high-ranking Starfleet officer in a galaxy filled with telepathic races must have some sort of training to avoid detection or interrogation.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 09, 2017, 02:22:42 AM
For what it's worth, I have been playing Faye as if Trent has mental defenses since that is what I'd been told before diving into the Asurian teleconference thread. If that's gonna be retconned lemme know.

And @FollowTomorrow I'd be all for any extra insight Faye can glean.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: CanadianVet on September 09, 2017, 02:52:22 AM
It was never explicitly explained anywhere, but wouldn't it make sense that there might be some kind of conditioning for people privy to really sensitive information, so they can't get their minds pumped by any telepath walking by?

But if there is a need to retcon, @Brutus, might I suggest that instead Faye might pick up on, say, "outstanding mental discipline"?
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Josie on September 09, 2017, 03:46:19 AM
How about an offer to bury the hatchet with some champion combat?  They seem like a people who would go for something like that.

Zrinka is willing to help with champion combat as she loves that sort of thing. She knows Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and an ex-Marine, and she would love to beat the snot out of aliens to help the ship.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 09, 2017, 12:00:04 PM
Yeah, I think a bit of retconning have to be done, but that being said, read below, @Brutus .

Now, I mean to sort out what I approve in terms of telepathic and empathic abilities, and I think it should be both plausible and fair. In regard to characters with these abilities that are not preforming a Vulcan mind-meld:

They can:

They can't:

Does this make sense? This should be pretty fair and plausible, yes?

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Josie on September 09, 2017, 01:59:27 PM
As someone playing a half-Betazoid, it makes sense to me..

You won't have to worry about Zrinka. For her, her empathy skills are completely untrained and essentially more as a crippling effect.. I have had a chance to use it, but I was thinking more that whatever sense she gets will be confusing and probably more likely to be misjudged as she isn't very good with her own emotions.

So it would be like 'what the heck??' and either sarcasm or anger back.. which could be rather awkward.

or be just completely sucker-punched by some telepathy. like her brain has a big 'kick me' sign stuck on it.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 09, 2017, 04:48:11 PM
Yeah, I think a bit of retconning have to be done, but that being said, read below, @Brutus .

Now, I mean to sort out what I approve in terms of telepathic and empathic abilities, and I think it should be both plausible and fair. In regard to characters with these abilities that are not preforming a Vulcan mind-meld:

They can:
  • Read another character's currrent thoughts
  • Feel another character's current mood (angry, sad etc.)
  • Do so at varying distances depending on the strength of their abilities, but not through monitors, obviously.
  • Do the above with varying clarity depending on circumstances and vividness of thoughts and emotions. Example: Reading a person's thoughts while he is fishing and isn't thinking about anything in particular will not yield much at all.
  • Only read thoughts and feel emotions that are made perfectly clear in another writer's post, and not read something that shouln't be there according to the writer. Being too presumptuous in this regard equals godmoding, so please... please don't overuse these abilities in writing telepaths.

They can't:
  • Read non-current thoughts or feelings. Think of a character's mind as a map, and as the character thinks, a spotlight is moving across that map. The telepath may only be able to read what the spotlight is shining on.
  • Click some button and 'download' the entire family history of a character, or know all previous acquaintances in another person's memory.
  • 'Download' all the knowledge of secret Starfleet Intelligence information from someone who happens to pass by. Unless, of course, the intelligence operative in question is explicitly trying to solve some secret puzzle in his head at that exact moment, where the telepath will be reading the fitting of those pieces of the puzzles and not the entire context and scope of the image.
  • Do what touch-telepaths do, where the shows several times show Vulcans delving into minds and learning things as if they are accessing a library. The mind-meld is very different from reading current thoughts.

Does this make sense? This should be pretty fair and plausible, yes?

Best,

Auctor Lucan

By and large that seems reasonable, yeah. I will point out that it varies based on the strength of the telepath. Lwaxana seemed to be able to probe a bit deeper than just surface thoughts if she put her mind to it, though she could never read Cardassians or Ferengi no matter how hard she tried. Empaths like Deanna, however, could begin to pick up very....slim impressions over time and exposure to specific Ferengi. But that was becuase of her half human nature. Faye, for instance, would be borked no matter how long she stayed around a Ferengi :)

Other things of note from the series was a mention that just because they are not touch telepaths does not mean that physical contact did nothing to enhance the effects. It did usually allow for a stronger 'read' on a person, and depending on the telepath, and how deeply involved they were with the recipient, could lead to a much, much deeper connection. It was even possible for Telepaths and Empaths to communicate their thoughts to non-telepaths, but only if there was a deep personal connection (Troi and Riker are the primary example when it comes to Betazoids, though not the only one. if i remember correctly, Lwaxana and her husband, Ian had that same connection.)

Also, *trained* telepaths can do a lot of what Vulcans can do - but Faye is not trained like that!

Regarding god modding - for the love of all things holy if i start to do that call me on it :D
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 09, 2017, 05:08:58 PM
Well, I think that the easiest way to handle the "depends" conditions mentioned by Brutus is OOC agreement between writers, whether anything more than previously listed things are picked up or not. It could be beneficial to plot advancement in some cases that more things are picked up rather than less, so there is the possibility for that. To avoid risk of godmoding, however, we keep it at surface thoughts as a default unless anything more is agreed OOC.

Works, right?

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Brutus on September 09, 2017, 05:22:39 PM
Absolutely.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: steelphoenix on September 09, 2017, 05:27:05 PM
Auctor, might I recommend carving this conversation out into a proper "about telepaths" topic?

Beyond that, it was explained that mind meld isn't exactly telepathic probing.  A mind meld is literally a merging of the minds which is why the stronger mind is able to "dig" through it while in the meld, because they are accessing the other person's thoughts and memories as if they were their own.  The down side is that they leave themselves equally vulnerable to someone who could potentially be stronger and seize control of the meld.

There are instances where telepathy itself has been used intrusively/offensively (technically, that is how kzinti telepathy has been portrayed).  In those situations, I agree that those should explicitly be agreed to between the participants just like any physical combat would.  In the case of the aforementioned kzinti telepathy, the most effective defense was actively thinking about things that disgust kzinti (such as vegetables) to effectively dissuade them from staying in the mind.

Now, another point of note is something I consider when it comes to Deacon's abilities, for example.  His empathy (his ziirgah) isn't solely based on the psionic field that Star Trek telepathic abilities utilize, but also in part on his other senses, so even if a person's mind is blocked, he might pick up elements from their scent, tone of voice, or mannerisms that betray their emotional state.  Of course, as with mental discipline, a physically disciplined person with the intent to deceive can mask those things as well.  So if he ever "overreads" someone, please let me know, but understand he isn't always relying on extra sensory input to do it.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 09, 2017, 05:32:28 PM
Lol, of course. Work, work, work. ;)

It will be added to the wiki but I still have things listed on the Main OOC I need help with.

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Aeolus on September 09, 2017, 07:37:09 PM
Auctor, I'd be more than happy to write a wikipage for various telepathic/empathic abilities and player guidelines/restrictions, and submit it to you for final approval (help ease your workload).  I'll include @Brutus and any other telepathic crew member that wants input/suggestions on it.

Last off topic comment from me, lol.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 09, 2017, 08:30:03 PM
Thank you, that would be really helpful. :)

SummerDawn has given us ok to use some resources from his USS Wolff wiki, and there are two pages there that I think would be interesting to borrow from as long as we leave the usual disclaimer to the Wolff Wiki at the bottom of the page (see, for example the bottom the Planetary Classification page (https://uss-theurgy.com/w/index.php?title=Planetary_Classification), minus the image credit). Here are the two relevant pages:

http://www.usswolff.com/wiki/Telepathy

http://www.usswolff.com/wiki/T/E_Rating_System

There is also this page, which should then be referenced, linked and credited:

https://www.starbase118.net/cadets/your-character/rules-of-telepathy-empathy/

+ The principles mentioned earlier in this thread.

Only including writers with characters that have telepathic and/or emphatic abilities to make input and suggestions on it might be considered biased by writers not keen on some of the aspects of these abilities, so I suggest the draft is posted on the R&D board when you are done with it so the whole sim can weigh in on it. Is that okay with you?

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Triton on September 12, 2017, 03:01:30 AM
Okay, wait a minute, is it really canon that humans and not just Cardassians can undergo training to protect their minds from being read? I would like canon references for that because I am not quite sure neither Trent nor Marquez can.

As for a wiki page, noted and added to the list!

Best,

Auctor Lucan

Warning: Wall-text of implied-at-but-not-elaborated-upon origins.

I've established, whether through an earlier draft or proof of his history where Marquez worked on the Eagle Project. It was headed briefly by Captain Solok (DS9: Take me out to the holodeck), who convinced Starfleet Command to monitor the Romulans and ensure they wouldn't try a repeat of their invasion of Vulcan, or anything similar.

Senior officers with high-enough clearance to this joint-species endeavor were subject to the Vulcan's idea of physical training and ways to resist against Romulan interrogative tactics. Romulans obviously lack the telepathic aspect, but their Remans and certain machineries of theirs do not. This in mind, Solok took the senior officers of the Project's volunteers aboard a performance evaluation cruise, in which the holodecks were to simulate extremely harsh environments known to be favored by Romulans (Jungles, cities, wreckage, Vulcan itself for a theoretical invasion, and oddly they spent 60% of the holodeck training in the latter, likely given the intense heat and high altitudes)

Not everyone on Solok's ship was particularly fond of the Skipper being too hard on the non-Vulcans, no matter how endurant they were, Solok seemed to just want to prove Vulcan superiority and forge even non-Vulcans for his next performance evaluation to dispel any rumors of species-ism. One of those resistances in the training cruise was to defend against telepathy (The Harry Potter equivalent to occlumency): Like Snape probing Harry's mind, one of Solok's officers (who believed his skipper was uneccessarily over-demanding, given the Eagle Project's growing list of washouts) as part of the program was to just up the resistance to mind reading. Then, going into the second stage of this, Striker learned how to 'wall off' certain facets of his personality only he makes evident when he desires; Solok's officer also left a scripture that had been dictated by President Archer regarding mental fortitude, which Solok had casually dismissed as a cautionary tale for Vulcan children.  (I've given this origins story a bit of thought before Theurgy, and my friend on STO mains as a Vulcan. She went on to say that even though she hates Enterprise and its effect on Vulcan canon, there are ways informed Humans can resist telepathy, even without a Katra).

Like the film Inception, however, Marquez is as such vulnerable to telepathy at night; aren't we all? However I'd like to think his daytime lucidity, as joked, works just fine when he has his mind set on the job at hand, hence 'Who are you, the Terminator?' when Someone were to scan him (Aenar, Betazoid, Vulcan, certain Reman). It's even said on his Wiki that telepaths might detect at most a brooding lone gunslinger.

TL:DR, He's as human as they come, but he's been to Vulcan Boot Camp, and has just enough willpower to detain a mental intruder, though not counter-attack-worthy yet... that's something to develop, probably after some Sessions with Ejek over Cardassian Chess.


[Show/Hide]

While this isn't a predominant facet, it belies a potential ability..., and as I've told Brutus, that while Marquez might be a bit more hard-to-read and more professional, Mariner [Show/Hide]



Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Auctor Lucan on September 12, 2017, 12:14:21 PM
TL:DR, He's as human as they come, but he's been to Vulcan Boot Camp, and has just enough willpower to detain a mental intruder, though not counter-attack-worthy yet... that's something to develop, probably after some Sessions with Ejek over Cardassian Chess.

No he hasn't.

..., and as I've told Brutus, that while Marquez might be a bit more hard-to-read and more professional, Mariner ...isn't. ;)

That's fine.

Best,

Auctor Lucan
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: Triton on September 14, 2017, 12:09:09 AM
TL:DR, He's as human as they come, but he's been to Vulcan Boot Camp, and has just enough willpower to detain a mental intruder, though not counter-attack-worthy yet... that's something to develop, probably after some Sessions with Ejek over Cardassian Chess.

No he hasn't.


http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Extreme_Measures_(episode)
Good point: Expelling party crashers is preferable to detaining them. Easier, too.

Well, I think that the easiest way to handle the "depends" conditions mentioned by Brutus is OOC agreement between writers, whether anything more than previously listed things are picked up or not. It could be beneficial to plot advancement in some cases that more things are picked up rather than less, so there is the possibility for that. To avoid risk of godmoding, however, we keep it at surface thoughts as a default unless anything more is agreed OOC.

Works, right?

Best,

Auctor Lucan

Works.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: CanadianVet on October 03, 2017, 10:04:17 PM
Another thought, reached in cooperation with our Esteemed, Fearless Leader:

The Asurians who aren't too fond of Theurgy call in their marker with the Sheromi, which leads to Theurgy and a large, heavily armed and armoured vessel, playing cat-and-mouse in the depths of the Nebula.  No shields available for battle, lets they risk getting cooked by the radiation (anti-radiation shield harmonics being incompatible with those needed for combat), and running as silent as possible (no warp core, minimal power levels, no active sensors, etc), and passive sensors are almost blinded by the background mess.

Basically, our own version of the the engagement between Khan and Kirk in the Mutara Nebula, or Worf commanding the Defiant in the atmosphere of a gas giant against the Jem'Hadar, and the obligatory hunter-vs-hunter scene in every submarine movie.  A battle lasting hours while trying to come into position to deliver a single killing blow... without getting blown to bits by the syrillium gas.
Title: Re: The Asurian Threat Sub-Plot Discussion
Post by: chXinya on October 04, 2017, 12:55:56 AM
On idea I’d been kicking around in general, but works really well here since the Asurans have cloaking devices:

Shall can return to his overwatch position in Stellar Cartography after making some adjustments to the sensors to make it possible to look for objects moving through the nebula.  This modification would be some cobbled together tech meant for studying gas or even fluids so he can read the different currents and other fluid dynamics in the nebula.  This in turn gives him the ability to detect objects by spotting the wakes they leave in the nebula gas.

The limits of this however, is that it is a directional sensor and somewhat limited in range, so he can only look at a portion of the nebula at one time.  If this sensor beam is detectable, enemy ships might be able to stop or slow in time to cut down on their wake (if they figure out that’s what the Theurgy is doing).

And the best part is, if the Captain wants to keep it secret that the Asurans are coming after Theurgy to do harm, Shall doesn’t necessarily have to be told, he just needs to know that he’s on the lookout for any incoming ships.
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